EP 16: Sabato Sagaria

Transcript

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Welcome to Hospitality On The Rise, the podcast about the people shaping the hospitality industry and their journeys. I'm your host, Alice Cheng, founder and CEO of Culinary Agents, hospitality's go-to hiring platform. And I'm here to give you your dose of virtual mentorship.

Here, we'll be sharing the stories, lessons learned, and advice from hospitality leaders who've carved out their own path to success. After all, this industry is where many get their start and go on to do incredible things.

Whether you're a pro, starting out, or just love the hustle, this podcast highlights what makes hospitality extraordinary, the people.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

We're so excited to have Sabato Sagario here with us today, co-founder and managing partner of Apres Crew Hospitality and Master Sommelier. Also TV personality and other media, fun things that we're going to talk about and learn more here. Sabato, thank you so much for joining us today.

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA 

Well, thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

We're celebrating our 13th anniversary this year at Culinary Agents. I had, in preparation for chatting with you, is going through some, some fond memories of early times working together. And here we are 13 years later. 

So because this is about you and not about me, we are here to hear about how you got started and what you love about this industry and some tidbits of advice that you picked up along the way.

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

I look forward to sharing those, and congratulations. Happy 13th anniversary. I guess time's fun when you're having flies right?

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah. So how did you get started in hospitality?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

How did I get started? It all goes back to a bottle of Heinz ketchup. So I grew up in Columbus, Ohio, and both my parents were professors. My mom was teaching at Ohio State, and she had a Fulbright Scholarship to teach in Indonesia. So as my sophomore year in high school, I left Columbus, Ohio and went to live in Jakarta, Indonesia, where I lived, or my parents lived in a small town called Bandung. There wasn't a school; the school only went up until eighth grade. So I went to school in Jakarta and then would go visit them every couple weeks. They had a friend who was the GM of the five-star luxury hotel in Bandung, which is in the mountains. I think it was about three hour train ride from Jakarta.

So one weekend when I was visiting them, they said, “You should spend the day with the GM.” I still remember this day, it was the Hotel Papandayan. So there I was–I think I was 14 at the time–and thousands and thousands of miles from the calm and sanctity of Columbus. I was a stranger in a strange land, and I spent the day with the GM, and I was like, “Wow, this is pretty cool. There's a chocolate factory, there's a pastry–, there's a pool on the roof.” And then he said, “If you want, I have a meeting. Why don't you go down to the restaurant and have lunch and I'll pick you up afterwards.” 

I remember going in there and of course I ordered cheeseburger, french fries, and Coke of some sort. And it came out and I remember dipping my french fries into the ketchup, and I was like, this reminds me of home. Everywhere else that we had gone in Southeast Asia, they had the knockoff ketchup that it was … not enough acidity. It was too sweet. It was just really off. And then I hit it that moment. I was like, oh my God, this is what I remember from home. It gave me that sort of warm hug of making me feel so far away from home, but yet felt so at home in that moment. 

I said, “Wow, this is really kind of cool.” And that was, to me, a little bit of the magic of hospitality, of being able to make people feel so welcome and so comfortable as they're exploring something new or they're out of their comfort zone. That was one element that stood out, and also I said, “Wow, I love these luxury hotels.” We were growing up in middle-class, and we stayed in motels mostly when we were traveling, not hotels. So to have the opportunity to be in that environment was like, “Wow, this is the dream. Wow, if I could work at these luxury hotels and resorts, that's my life.” And yes, it is your life, but it's not exactly what you get to enjoy day in day out, but that's what really, I think, lit the spark for me. Then I went on to study hotel restaurant management at Cornell, and that set me on the course.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Great. Now, question. Did it come in the cute little jars too? 

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

Yes, it definitely did.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Because like the packaging just takes it to the next level, right?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

Yes. Yes. And I will still to this day say that Heinz ketchup is the number one condiment out there. It's a tomato coulis, I guess, I would call it nowadays, by Heinz. Yes.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Got it. Okay, so now back to our regular scheduled programming–

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

You were looking for sponsors, you were looking for sponsorship, right? So, Heinz, you're welcome. 

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

We'll call them. Thank you. I'm like, ‘kay, I'm coming for you for Tabasco. So you're at Cornell, you're studying, and now is it everything that you thought it was going to potentially be, learning the business side and operations, etc., and you're still convinced this is the path you're taking?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA 

Yeah, it was really great because it was like getting a bachelor's degree, but all of the case studies were rooted in hospitality. So that was really exciting. When you're taking marketing, you're talking about a resort, you're talking about a casino in terms of how they're trying to position themselves. Then throughout the four years, I had to do different internships. And so I sort of took the Goldilocks approach of, “Oh, what is it like to work in food and beverage? What is it like to work at the front desk?” And really understand what I like and what I want to do more of and what is like, “okay, that's not for me,” but learn it before I got out into the real world. 

So that was really a great experience. I worked at Sea Pines in Hilton Head, South Carolina at the front desk. The only time I got to engage with guests was when they got out of their car after driving however many hours from Columbus, Ohio and their minivans or when their air conditioning wasn't working in their condo. And I'd like to sprinkle a little more happiness in people's world. So food and beverage was a draw for me. 

Then also at Cornell, there was a statute in the New York state law that says you could consume wine for “educational purposes” before you were 21 if you enrolled in the hotel school. So I took full advantage of that and was able to do lot of extracurricular studying, then became a TA, and I remember they would pay me like $5.50 an hour, and that was like on Wednesday, and then they would give you two bottles of wine to take home leftover from the tasting. So that would get me to like Friday. I was like, “Wow, I can get paid to drink wine. So this hospitality thing's pretty cool.”

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG 

Was that your foray into more of the wine stuff?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

It most definitely was. Most definitely was.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

I don't mean to say wine “stuff,” it makes it sound so… “that wine thing that you do.”

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

Yeah, the wine thing on the side, yeah, that wine hobby you have, yeah.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Wow. Okay. So you're getting the education, you're doing your internships and tasting stuff. What happens when you're in the real world now?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA 

What happens when I'm in the real world? So my first job was at the Greenbrier Hotel in wild and wonderful West Virginia. So went from Ithaca, New York, which isn't exactly a booming metropolis, to White Sulphur Springs, West Virginia, which is definitely not a booming metropolis. It was a fascinating experience for me because I went in cooking in the kitchen as part of my management training program. So I did that for a couple months. I remember to this day–and I had never cooked in a professional kitchen. Like the most I'd done, like the most complex thing was probably like a culinary lab where I made risotto for four. 

And now I remember my first night I showed up to work, and I was on the hot app station, and we were doing like a risotto dish with a scallop saltimbocca. And at the end of the night, I went down in flames. I remember at the end of night, I found I did like 300 orders of scallop risotto, which was more of one dish than any restaurant I ever worked in had done in covers on a given night. And literally to the left and right of me was the gentleman Rich Rosendale, who went on to represent the U.S. in the Culinary Olympics, and then Michael Voltaggio, who went on to represent himself in Top Chef. They kind of bailed me out and became friends with them. 

Then one day I showed up wearing a suit and they're like, “What are you doing wearing a suit?” I'm like, “Oh, it's part of my management training programs.” “You didn't tell us you were a management trainee.” It's like, “Well, you guys didn't ask.” Like, “We just thought you were a bad cook.” And it's like, “No, I just did this.” 

And then I started teaching wine courses and I would teach them for the apprentices. So that was my way of sort of giving back and really grateful for all the people that put up with me and bailed me out and showed me the ways, but it was really important for me there because I was able to really understand all aspects of restaurants or hotels, whether it be front of house, back of house. And at the Greenbrier, being able to work in room service, banquets, open new restaurants, run restaurants, wine programs, cocktail programs, really under one roof being able to be exposed to that, I couldn't think of a better cross-training or initial foundation to start my career.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

You get exposed to all those things, and you have responsibilities, but you're not like owning any of it yet. You get to really have fun with it. I think maybe Michael and Rich had some initiation programs that they do differently for management trainees. But anyway, well, I'll have to follow up with that separately. 

Okay. So you have your time there, and now you're going to other parts of the country now, traveling. Still in hotels, working still in hotels. You spent quite some time in hotels before you hit the true restaurant group circuit. What was that transition like?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

Well, as I was going through the hotels, again, I sort of did the Goldilocks approach where I was like, “Oh, I worked in an independent resort, 1,600 rooms at the Greenbrier. I want to work for a hotel company and see how they do it.” So I worked with Four Seasons for a little bit. And then I was like, “Oh, well, I want to also work at a five-star restaurant and hotel.” And then I went to The Inn at Little Washington. Then it's like, well, there's between the 18 rooms at The Inn at Little Washington, the 1,600 rooms at the Greenbrier, there's probably a more of a sweet spot I could dial in on. And that's when I went to Aspen at The Little Nell, and I think the common thread between those for me was they all were very focused on hospitality at excellence.

I liked resorts because it was where people could go for that one week to leave the real world behind. I really enjoyed people coming in with that mindset and then showing them how to make the most of that time. In addition to that, they had a strong focus on beverage, especially The Inn and The Little Nell. So being able to run the food and beverage programs there while still having one foot in the wine pool was a great opportunity for me as I was going through there. 

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

And throughout this time, because it doesn't sound like you were busy enough, you decided to go get your Master Sommelier. Well, I don't know if you decided to “get it,” but you were working towards that, and you did receive it. What was that like? Did you decide, “Well, I really love this wine stuff, and I want to learn more. I think I'm going to just reach the highest pinnacle of what you can get in the wine world”?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA 

Not at all actually. When I started on the path, I took my introductory course when I was at the Greenbrier. And if you're looking back in the late 90s and thinking about the wine community in West Virginia, there were probably like three of us that were interested in wine. So for me, it was like studying, and I was using the exams as a litmus test to how I was progressing, and so I'd go study, and then I'd go take the exam. So great, I passed. 

I come back and I did that, and I passed the advanced exam the first time, but I really had no idea what I was going into or how to prepare, and somehow was able to do that. But after I was at The Inn–I was the wine director there–I was actually pretty burnt out on wine at that point in time. So I was at sort of a crossroads where I saying, “Do I stay in wine? Do I stay in restaurants?” I applied to business school, and unfortunately I didn't get in. And that's what then opened up The Nell. But at that point, I was saying, “Okay, I'm done with wine, but I want to be around it.” 

I was at the Nell, and Jay Fletcher–who was on the board at the time of the Court of Master Sommeliers–he lives in Aspen and he said, “You know, I saw that you passed your advanced on the first time. You should take your MS exam. We have a number of people here that are preparing and studying for that.” So at that time, Jonathan Pullis was there, Richard was there, Richard Betts. It was the first time that I'd actually been around a community of people that were studying, and I was like, okay, let me give this a try. I've already gotten this far and got drawn in and realizing that if you surround yourself with the right people, they can actually push you to do more than you would do on your own. That was sort of this crossfit culture of wine that we created at The Nell, all starts with Jay, really pushing people and pulling them together. And so that's what got me back on track. I figured if I didn't do it now, I never would. And so let's give this a job. In the six years I was there we had five people that worked at The Nell that went on to pass their MS exam.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

It's kind of the place, the unspoken place that people know. Like if you're going for that, you just spend some time there and just through osmosis or just show your face, right? 

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA 

Yeah. And shave your head.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah. We'll get to that too. Well, so that's great. So you get, which is obviously no easy feat. But if you surround yourself with the right community and support network, it is an easier process, or at least you probably had some more fun during your tasting evenings, right? 

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA 

Most definitely.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

It was more than a party of one. So you're achieving these high accolades. You're working with some of the best and brightest, and The Nell is super high standards as well. So I'm sure you're also enjoying your time. And you're in Aspen, which is beautiful. What took you to New York?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

I really had never had a desire to work or live in New York. My “full circle” when I was interviewing at the Greenbrier I remember spring break in high school–no, in college, I'm sorry. I didn't have a job, so I canceled my spring break plans and I spent, I think, two or three days at the Waldorf in New York interviewing. Then I flew to West Virginia and interviewed there. I think it was actually backwards, because I remember the Food and Beverage Director, the Waldorf said, “Well, why would you want to go to the Greenbrier and not here?” And I said, “Well, they have four golf courses.” And they said, “That's not going to change here.” 

But I didn't come to New York at that time, and I'm glad that I didn't then. Actually Aspen was the largest town post-college that I lived in. I was like, “Oh, New York was on the horizon.” But I was at a crossroads. I had passed my MS. I'd been in Aspen for six years. It's an amazing place, but it's also a little bit like Never Neverland. You know, we don't have to grow up, it's [a] beautiful place to live, be and play. And over the years, I had gotten to know Danny Meyer. He would stay with us at The Nell–and also a tremendous amount of folks from New York just because when they would come out for Aspen Food & Wine, they would stay with us, and we could roll out the red carpet and really show them an amazing time. So it made some really great relationships.

I had met Danny and then actually ran into him at Pebble Beach Food & Wine, and he said, “You know, we're creating this job called the Chief Restaurant Officer. I think you'd be great for it. Would you like to come to New York and meet with the team and talk about it?” And when Danny says that, you're like, “Yep, let's do it.” So I went to New York and interviewed and I can't tell you how many trips that I made from West Virginia to New York. But at one point I was like, “Are they just flying me out here to help train their team on how to interview people?” Because I felt like I met with every single person in every single restaurant, which was great, because it really gave me a great look into the culture, who the people were that I'd be working with, and also for them to get to know me. Coming into an organization like that with a culture that's so strong, I really think that's important about building the trust–and it goes both ways–making it a safe place because without that it's really hard to kind of link arms and march forward. That's what brought me to New York. Call it 10, almost 11 years ago.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Wow, it’s been that long? Wow. And that's where we met.

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

I remember.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

You come into this amazing organization and leadership role. So it makes sense that they were feeling you out and doing their due diligence. And really in a unique role, as you mentioned, it was something that they were creating. And working with all of these different brands under one group, every one of them with their own ray and spotlight. What was that like? What were some of the eye-opening moments there?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

I think there are a couple of them. First of all, obviously, it was daunting to some extent coming in from outside of New York into this role and people that I had looked up to and admired from afar. And how I was acclimated into USHG, really grateful for Danny and the team for investing in me on that. I call it the ultimate internship. Basically I spent a week or two at every single restaurant working in all different positions and going through that to really understand the nuances of how they were similar, how they were different. I did that for about my first three months, was just doing that. One week I'd be at The Modern, next week I'd be at Blue Smoke and then at Gramercy Tavern. That really gave me a great opportunity to meet the folks and understand the businesses. 

And I think one of the biggest things was as I was going through that process, I realized that I had purview into all those restaurants. But I also saw they were siloed. So I started doing, I called it breakfast of champions, and it was like taking one role from around the company and getting those folks together. I remember doing it with the CDCs one morning, showed up at Maialino for breakfast, and there they are. People started showing up and started introducing themselves to each other. And I started like, wow, you know, these are kind of our bench of talent that's coming up. They are second in command of the kitchens, but they don't know that they have a peer set. They probably have more connectivity to people outside of our organization than they do inside. 

So how do we actually build that bond so they can use each other's resources, but also start to see opportunities for them to grow within this organization? Not just within their restaurant where there's a ceiling; because we had a chef partner that was the managing partner, there might not be too much advancement there. So that was really fun to do that and start to build those bonds and develop resources and relationships amongst the team across the restaurants.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

That's great. I could totally see that happening too, especially also–I don't know if it has that much of a factor, I'm sure it plays into the fact that New York City is just so, you know, there's just so much stuff happening and there's no time for anything. It's like, you can live in an apartment building and never know or see your neighbors ever, you know? 

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

Yeah, it's probably better that you don't, yes.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yes, true. So, you know, and that kind of brings me to you seem like you value activities like golf, for example. I heard that was a deciding factor in where you were going. You have a really big job. You moved to this big city that you're unfamiliar with. You probably don't have much time for yourself. How did you and how do you keep yourself balanced and motivated?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

It was really a struggle when I moved to New York, just to name it. You know, when I was in Aspen, I was studying for the MS exam, and it was one of those things where you have to just be obsessive and compulsive about it. Because in my mind, I didn't want to come up one hour short of passing the exam, whatever that meant, if I had not asked, not to second guess, say, “Wow, if I just studied for one more hour, could I have passed this or could I have done that?” 

And so every waking hour, every powder day, I was in the library, and, talk about Aspen, the number of hours that people have studied for the Master Sommelier exams in that library is probably more than any other one facility in the country. But I took that mindset, then it's like, wait, now what? And there was really no balance in that. It was all just all about studying. 

When I came to New York, at the time we had eight restaurants and we grew it to 17 over that. And I think I ended up having like 23 direct reports, which is by no means sustainable. And I felt like I was really inadequate in my job because I felt like I was more like just a sprinkler kind of watering, [GESTURING SPRINKLER MOTIONS] and then I'm going to just get the top of the leaves, but not really getting to the roots of it and having an impact. So I struggled with that because I kind of took that same mentality towards my job that I did in Aspen studying. 

But when my last year, when I was studying for the exam, I only had blind tasting to finish. With that, you can't blind taste every day. I then made time to hike, to go on bike rides, to do yoga. I realized how much fresher I was because I had a way to be balanced. In Aspen, if you're not ... I started doing some self-reflection and saying that, okay when I'm snowboarding or I'm on my bike or I'm on a hike, I'm not looking at my phone. First of all, it doesn't work. Secondly, if I am, I'm going to fall off the side of a mountain. You really have to be present and in that moment. And in doing so, I wasn't thinking about work. I wasn’t thinking about wine. It was just my chance to be introspective. 

So in New York it was really hard for me to do that because there's no mountains, or I tried getting into biking, and it just took a lot of effort for me to go outside of the city to do it and I started swimming, and for me I was underwater for 45 minutes. I had put my phone away, and I could just get in this repetition in my mind, could just wander and go free. And that really showed me the importance of balance. Golf does that as well. My phone's in my bag. I don't look at it, and it's out so I can be present in that moment. And it's something that I don't do nearly enough and I need to remind myself to do more of, but it really highlighted how important that is for an industry–where we put so much time, energy, effort, passion, emotion into day in, day out–that you need to put your oxygen mask on first sometimes.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

I love it. That's great. And that's something I think is an ongoing, kind of self-reflection-slash-reminder to us all. Especially because it is the industry where everyone's putting everyone else before them and constantly worrying about how to make this a better experience or do one more thing for them. And you get home and you're just spent and you forget, so that's a great reminder.

So you go from one big job to another. Did you go right into the CEO role after USHG?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

Yeah, after USHG. I left USHG and at that point I was… I feel like I've always had my dream job. So that was a dream job, to go work and be Chief Restaurant Officer at USHG. But also looking around and saying, I've now run multiple concepts in one city, and I could get to them all by subway, and they were all different. How can I now learn about a singular concept and growing and scaling that? And that's when I went to Bartaco and was the president of Bartaco, based out of Connecticut. But we had 13 restaurants when I started.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, and you had quite a ride there too because the organization went through a lot of changes over the course of a couple of years. So talk about getting exposure to...

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA 

I didn't get into business school, but that was my business school degree. You know, three months in, they said, “Guess what? We're being bought by Del Frisco's.” And I was like, okay. So [I] started commuting between New York and Dallas. And then over the course of the next year, we opened nine restaurants and ended up having 22 restaurants in 13 states and led the team through an integration. 

Then it was like a year to the day, they said, “Guess what? We're no longer a publicly traded company. We're now being bought by a private equity company and going private and then splitting things up.” So there was a lots of learnings over those two, two-and–a-half years.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Tthat's incredible because some people don't get exposed to even a quarter of that in their lifetime. But I would imagine all of that kind of led you to what you're doing today, which is a very exciting… Tell us a little bit more about Apres Cru.

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA 

Yeah, so it absolutely did. And there are a lot of learnings. And I think every time I was at a crossroads in my career of what next held up the mirror and said, “What do I really get excited about and what I want to do more of?” The way I actually did that is coincidentally called my Eat, Pray, Surf. 

So I went down to Costa Rica and I went surfing; it's a surf camp for a week. Again, it's one of those things where sitting on a surfboard, watching the sunset is a really great opportunity for me to be sort of retrospective and introspective. That's where I accepted my job for Bartaco. I remember I literally wrote in the sand; my acceptance letter was “Let's do this Bartaco,” and I wrote it in the sand, and I took a picture as the sun was setting and sent it to the CEO of the time as the way I accepted my job. And after I left Bartaco I went back to that same place and did my Eat, Pray, Surf and said, “Okay, what do I really enjoy and want to do more of?” And it was “growing,” and that's not just growing myself, but growing concepts, growing culture, growing people and was trying to say, okay, what is the best way that I can actually do that as I build on my career? 

I was on sabbatical, and COVID happened, and through that time paired up with my partners, Eric and Dustin. And we started Apres Cru and the thesis was: how do we partner with really talented chefs and operators that are founders in their companies, done a great job of building something that's beloved. But if we could actually lend our resources and expertise, can we actually help them achieve more and grow their concepts with it?

And so we started the company, and every time an opportunity came our way, we held up that mirror and said, “Okay, well, you've gone through this. Who do we want to be when we grow up? And what's that avenue? And what's opportunistic?” So we've sort of– still finding our way, but feel really proud of what we've been able to create and establish the partnerships we've built. But we are partners with five restaurant companies and invested in them, provide a lot of the back office support, and then work together to grow their concepts and do more than either of us could do on our own.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

I think, well, a couple of things. I think it's brilliant, and also you are all operators that have the experience, not just folks that are like, “We like to eat, let's give this a shot,” right? So you already know what you're getting into to a certain extent. And you're able to take all of your lessons learned and knowledge and really use that when you're analyzing who you want to partner with, right? Because a partnership, you want everyone to be successful in that transaction.

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

Right

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

And we oftentimes get questions, and part of why we do Hospitality Career Paths and help people remind them to kind of take those moments to self-reflect and ask themselves the hard questions is sometimes people get stuck, and they don't know… They know what they want to do and they know where they see themselves five years from now and they're doing all the right things, but they don't know how to quite get there. 

Sometimes it's they just don't know the right people. Maybe the time needs to be spent on networking or whatever it may be. But at least taking the time to take a step back will let you kind of identify where the gap is and then really target your effort to fill that gap. I love the concept. I love what you guys are doing and the brands you work with. I'm excited to see more. Little birdie told me there might be something coming up in my neighborhood, but you know, I'll just wait patiently.

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA 

Maybe.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

What's great about your timeline–and not just because I've known you for many years, over a decade, and you've been always, I would say, not just supportive, but you really bring this perspective that is rooted in experience clearly that I know for me, from a business standpoint, I really appreciate. I can only imagine what you bring to the partners. But I’m curious if there's anything that you look back on that you're like, “I should have done that.” Or “Maybe that would have been kind of interesting,” you know, just for giggles.

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

Yeah. Should have played that played those winning numbers in the Powerball. It's interesting. I don't really look back, I look forward. And it’s interesting, there's one of those crossroad moments that I think’s very pivotal. And I'm grateful that I didn't go down the path. But literally when I was at The Inn at Little Washington, I had two opportunities. One was to become a GM at a Relais & Châteaux hotel in Charlottesville, Virginia, or go to The Little Nell to be Food and Beverage Director. And I had offers in my hand for both of those. As I said, I was sort of burnt out on food and beverage after the end and said, “Okay, maybe I want to get into something that's a little bit broader in Relais & Châteaux.”

I literally had called the owner of the hotel, and I was getting ready to accept the job, and I got his voicemail. It was at night, and I left him a message, “Give me a call tomorrow” and went to bed that night. Woke up in the morning and I said, “I need to go to Aspen. I need to go to The Little Nell.” And he called back that morning at like 10 o'clock and I declined that offer and accepted my offer at The Nell. 

And I think about what would have happened had he picked up that call and answered the phone, what would have been different? Would I have gone through with it? Where would I be now? I don't really look back. I feel very confident in the decision that I made and feel very fortunate for that. But whatever decision is of what I should have done or shouldn't have done, I think there's lots of learnings in all of those.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

I always like that question. Sometimes it takes one direction or another, but I think that's the thing we also are big evangelists of at Culinary Agents, which is as long as you thoughtfully evaluate and ask yourself the hard questions, what's your priority, make your decision, it's moving forward. And the skills that you learn and the network that you make, you can bring along and you can do all sorts of things.

On that note, I think we're going to go into quick-fire–

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA
Uh oh!

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG.

Quick-fire questions, which I realize aren't actually quick because I always take them really slow and draw them out. 

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

They'll catch me off guard, they’ll be quick.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

What advice would you tell your younger self?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA 

What advice would I tell my younger self? Find balance. That's important. We talked about that earlier. I think that's something that I didn't look for, didn't realize the importance of it. And if you just think about how our industry has evolved and just being able to talk about wellness, that really wasn't something that was talked about previously. I think being able to be focused on that more early on and instill that is important.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG 

What's your advice for someone struggling in the industry?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

There's not just one path. And I think that's what's really exciting about where the industry is. If you like the industry, love the industry–first of all, you have to love the industry, period. But then how do you want to play a role in this industry? If I look at it coming up from the wine side of things, for example, when I was studying for my MS exam, great. You would become a wine director at a restaurant and then maybe you go to work for a distributor. Those were the two options. 

Now, if you think about the options that exist; I remember I was, I think I was like maybe the only food and bev–Rob Bigelow was the Food and Beverage Director of the Bellagio, but he and I were the only two people that were Food and Beverage Director that were also Master Sommeliers. And now the people that are running wineries, are they working with auction houses, working with AI companies? There's all different avenues retail that you can do that. So you may be in the industry, but where's your place? What's gonna give you the most excitement in that industry? And look beyond just the traditional kind of path because there's so many and it's an industry that also allows you to sort of blaze your own way.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

I love it. That feeds directly into Hospitality Career Paths. Thanks, Sab. What's your advice for fellow hospitality leaders?

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

What's my advice? How do we shake the Etch A Sketch? How do we not just do it how it's always been done? I think that's really important. For a long time, and still to this day, there's a lot of things, that's just how we've always done it. But I do think that our industry is one where we feel so much pressure from things coming in from the outside that impact us, whether it be immigration, whether it be tariffs. I mean, those are things that our real world say that we can't just go back to how business was as usual. I think we see that as a shrinking job market. 

You could say I remember the days when it was like, “Oh, you have to have worked in a New York Times three-star restaurant or a Michelin-starred restaurant if you want to be even a food runner here.” Well, gone are those days. 

So you can say, “Well, we just can't find people.” Or you can say, “You know what? We're actually going to find the right type of people, and we're actually going to enhance how we train, how we prepare, how we onboard people. So we can actually bring them up,and we actually have a larger pool to draw from.” You can say, “It's kids these days, they're not the same.” Or you can say, “Well, how are we going to change?” And the world changes around us, so we need to change with it as well.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

I love it. Well, with that, thank you so much Sabato for your time and sharing your path and your advice. Thank you personally for all the support you've given to us at Culinary Agents. It's been really a pleasure to see you also continue to do some really exciting things. So thank you.

 

GUEST: SABATO SAGARIA

Thank you and congratulations to you, Alice. It's hard to believe it's been 13 years, and we've got to turn the microphone on you and go deep into your background, because I think it's fascinating too in terms of how you pivot in this industry and what you've done and also how you've enabled so many people to connect and also to grow. So thank you for all that you and your team does.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Thank you, thank you.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG
Remember, success looks different for everyone in hospitality. No two paths are the same. If you have a leader or a topic you want to hear about, email [email protected].

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