Links
- COTE (Instagram)
- COQODAQ (Instagram)
- Gracious Hospitality Management (Website)
- Wine Empowered (Instagram)
- Wine Empowered (Website)
Transcript
HOST: ALICE CHENG
Welcome to Hospitality On The Rise, the podcast about the people shaping the hospitality industry and their journeys. I'm your host, Alice Cheng, founder and CEO of Culinary Agents, hospitality's go-to hiring platform. And I'm here to give you your dose of virtual mentorship.
Here, we'll be sharing the stories, lessons learned, and advice from hospitality leaders who've carved out their own path to success. After all, this industry is where many get their start and go on to do incredible things.
Whether you're a pro, starting out, or just love the hustle, this podcast highlights what makes hospitality extraordinary, the people.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
I'm so excited to have Victoria James here with us today. Victoria is the Sommelier, Exec Corporate Beverage Director and Partner at Gracious Hospitality Management, which includes restaurants and establishments such as COTE Korean Steakhouse, multiple locations and international, Vegas coming soon. And COQODAQ, which has the largest champagne wine list in the world, I think. We're going to get back to that. She's the author of Drink Pink, Wine Girl, Co-Founder of Wine Empowered, a nonprofit educational organization that provides tuition-free wine classes to women and minorities in the hospitality industry, and founder of COTE Wine Club.
And we are here to not only talk about all the great things that Victoria has done for the industry and in her career, but how she got there. So Victoria, how did it all begin? And welcome.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Hi, thank you for having me, Alice. Super excited to be here and chat all things culinary and F&B. So I grew up in the restaurant world. I started working at a greasy spoon diner under the railroad tracks in New Jersey when I was 13. And from there, I kind of always wanted to go into the big city. There would be this train that would go overhead the diner that would go to New York. Like every time it rumbled, I was like, oh my gosh, that's the sound of getting out of here and getting into New York.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
That's like a scene out of a movie. That's like an opening scene out of a movie. Sorry, go ahead.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Yeah, I mean, I was just like, I have to get to New York. And I think so many people relate to this, right? Because New York is this magical place where dreams come true. As a teenager, I was like, I don't know what I want to do with my life, but I want it to be in New York. So I moved to New York when I was 17, studied at Fordham University. And in order to pay for college, started bartending on Restaurant Row, which is–if you're not from New York, it's this old school block on 46th Street in the Theater District that has a ton of restaurants, some better than others. And I started bartending at this place called Lattanzi, which still remains an institution. It's Roman cuisine and really, really beautiful space and family-owned.
Anyway, quickly I realized I should not be bartending. I knew nothing about wine. I knew nothing about liquor, spirits. And I took a wine course just to learn a little bit more… and took another wine course. And the next thing you know, I was dropping out of college to become the youngest sommelier at 21. And then that's it. That's it, I was hooked.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
That's incredible. I mean, oftentimes people talk about that one moment or the thing, and it sounds like you had a couple of moments or that was like the goal. At that point, were you're like, “I'm going to just continue to study beverage and wine” or were you like, “One day I want to open a restaurant” or etc.? You sound like you dream really big.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
You know, I think for me, I was kind of trying to figure it out as I go along. And I think that there's often this misconception in business, especially when you're younger, people always ask you, “What do you want to be when you grow up? What do you want to do?” And it's OK not to have it all figured out. And at the time, I thought, “Oh, wouldn't it be great one day if x, y, or z happened?”
And it's great to dream big, but sometimes, if you fixate on one thing, you're actually limiting yourself because what ended up happening was way bigger and amazing than I could have ever dreamed.
HOST: ALICE CHENG (03:39.064)
Yeah, and I want to just highlight a little bit this whole youngest sommelier thing, because it's a really big deal. For a couple of reasons. One is I think when you were coming up through the stage, the industry was kind of evolving and changing. Wine always kind of had a little bit more of a, I don't know, soggy older feel, if you will. And I'm going to just go ahead and attribute a lot of the ushering in of like the different way, the new way, the more–I don’t want to call it the more casual–more approachable way for introducing wines and different types of beverages to diners. Right?
So this whole– You got awards, people specifically called them, like, what is it? The Back Label, New York's Youngest Sommelier. Like people are really honing in on that. And there's good reason for that. So anyway, I wanted to give that a little bit of airtime there. So fast forward. And now you're like, “I'm going to do this.” Where do you go from there?
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
So, I think, you know… Becoming the youngest sommelier in the country was one thing, but it was really important to me to be taken seriously. And as you mentioned, Alice, the wine world is an old boys club, right? And it definitely was. I was the youngest for sure but also a woman in a space that's not particularly welcoming or wasn't back then–this was 15 years ago. And I just remember thinking I have to be taken seriously. So I made sure to work at all the best restaurants with amazing wine lists and programs, go to every single tasting, try and go through as many competitions as possible. If you're not from the sommelier world, it might surprise you that there are sommelier competitions. I mean, it literally is like a Christopher Guest movie. It's like, I can't believe sommeliers will compete, over what? Over wine.
But I really wanted my peers to take me seriously, right? And so I just kind of went crazy and worked these wild hours, 80-hour work weeks, working at Michelin star, two Michelin star restaurants. Won all of these awards and these competitions for the very reason that I wanted to prove that women can do this too. And someone in their 20s, and it can be a career, and it can be taken seriously.
So I often think nowadays there's this notion that you're either approachable and fun in the wine world, or you're stodgy and you're serious. But it can be both things. And I really, really am for education and for pushing the boundaries of what you think something might be. But to me, it's really important that we all take this seriously. Being in restaurants is a serious profession. It's not just something you're doing until you wait, until your life starts, right? This is an important world we live in.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
Yeah, and that profession continues to get solidified more and more as the years, months go by, largely due course to leaders such as yourself that are literally paving the way and giving examples of how it can be done. That's why we do these Hospitality Career Paths, because it's like, you know, not only is this inspirational, but you're literally laying down potential avenues for people to explore. And so thank you.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Yeah, it's funny, you know, I remember when that piece was written–and this was over 10 years ago–about “New York's Youngest Sommelier.” And the feedback from that piece was so many people actually commented on it and wrote in and said, “Oh, she shouldn't have dropped out of college, actually. It's a terrible idea. It might seem good at the time, but she's going to regret that.” And it's funny, I never regret getting into the restaurant world. And I think that now we're starting to see more that not everyone has to approach their career in the same way. And getting into restaurants can be an education and can be a way forward.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
Absolutely. And one of the beautiful things–this is going to be like an ode to the restaurant industry, by the way. One of the beautiful things also is the foundational skills, the skills that you learn. The real life skills, the network, the people, all that. You can take that wherever, whether it's in an adjacent part of the industry or it's out of the industry in the future. You know, I think it's one of the industries that's so flexible that you can literally just build upon yourself, make yourself better, and your network, and then go do something else if you really want to, right? Because things change, life change, people change, etc.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Totally. A lot of people I ask in different fields will always say, “Oh, I see if someone has restaurant experience. That makes them a dynamic individual.” It really sets people apart. I mean, the ability to serve others and be in a room and give back to people is an incredible skill set, and it's incredibly valuable.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
Yes, and I'm going to tap into that and bring us into all this philanthropy work that you do as well, because you clearly are passionate about this. You started the–escaping me now, the Wine…
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Wine Empowered.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
Yes, Wine Empowered. Sorry. I have to get more coffee. And I love it because you clearly were like, yeah, you can be the youngest sommelier. But then you took that, and you took that platform and you built things on it, right? To all the things you said to be taken seriously to show that there's so much more here and also to give back. So talk a little bit about that and starting that.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Yeah, so the idea came back in 2017. We had just opened COTE in New York City. If you've not been–so COTE Korean Steakhouse, Michelin-starred steakhouse, is the brainchild of my partner, the Founder and CEO, my boss, Simon Kim, who's amazing.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
He is.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
And he had this dream to start a Korean steakhouse, so to elevate Korean barbecue and marry it to the classic New York chop house. And it was an instant success. I mean, it was insane. We worked every day, very, very hard at it, but we got a Michelin star right away with Chef David Shim as well, one of the partners. And we were building this brand, right? And I really, really, really was passionate about making–now that I had a little bit of a platform, right? As a partner in a restaurant group that was growing and had seen some success, I was like, “Now I can actually do something with this platform.”
So we started this thing internally. It was just me and our amazing sommelier team, called COTE College, which essentially was free wine classes to anyone on staff. So we had bussers sign up, dishwashers, hosts. And the idea here was that we wanted to give people a little bit of wine education to help drive customer experience, sales, all of the things that make a restaurant great. But something happened that I didn't expect. And this was where Wine Empowered was born.
So everyone graduated from the program. Dishwashers became servers, became managers, became sommeliers. And what I realized was this was the key to making the wine world a more equitable place. This free education not only gave people more knowledge about wine, but it empowered them to take hold of their careers. It really changed the course of their lives. And so, COTE College–we still have it actually–tuition-free wine program internally. And so if you work at any of our restaurants, you can go through this program. In addition, we also have an amazing sommelier internship program, which is also paid. And they're all run by our Head of Beverage Operations, Mia Van De Water, who's amazing, and a Master Sommelier.
So we still have that internal program, but from that, we were like, “We need to do something for the bigger industry, outside of our own restaurants.” And so myself, Amy Zhou, and Cynthia Chang, who all worked at COTE at the time, were three female sommeliers that all felt, growing up in the wine world, that we weren't seen or heard or taken seriously. And so we co-founded Wine Empowered in 2018 to offer tuition-free wine classes to women, people of color, in the hospitality industry in order to diversify those upper ranks of leadership, right? So you can go from a busser to a manager, and it has real world implications. I mean, not just in terms of pedigree, but you can go from making $45,000- $35,000 a year to over $100K, right? So this education leads to a better lifestyle for yourself, for your family.
And that was back in 2018 before these conversations were really happening, right? And now, I mean, it's wild to think that this is almost seven years later, and we've had over two dozen students go through the program and go on to build amazing careers. And we hope to continue to offer these classes for many years to come.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
I love that. You know, oftentimes– And it's no secret that you and team–and you just have such an amazing team, you know. I love Simon. I love you. And you just collect these great people, and you have this culture. You are like vibe, vibe creators, taste makers.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
I like vibe creators.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
I don't even know. Vibe creators, I'm going to go with that. Because it's not like you invented, you know, Korean BBQ. You definitely are doing something different, and you're coupling it with your secret sauce–literally and figuratively–and making it your own. And you're able to replicate that, which is extremely difficult in different cities, countries, etc,, of course, with its own little twist. And it's so important that one of the things that growing groups often are challenged with, obviously turnover. How do we continue and invest into our people, develop them, retain them, etc? This is such a great example of not only investing back in your team, but offering them growth opportunities, like real world growth opportunities that they can take with them, hopefully internally, but then potentially externally as well.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Totally. I mean, it's a very hard market out there, and it's really hard to find great people. I think to your point, one of the secret sauces of GHM, what we do in our restaurants is we try and look for good people. People who at their core are good and soft and squishy. Like that to us is like, if you have that, we can teach anything else, but you have to be a good person first and foremost. And so I think when you walk into our restaurants, you're just like, “Wow, these people are cool,” you know? Not cool and I mean like, you know, like “too cool for school.” Like, they're like good, genuine people.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
Yeah. Yeah. And I want to go back, and you mentioned briefly about working in Michelin star restaurants, but I'll just highlight a couple, like: Aureole, also Ristorante Morini, Marea, alsoxs, as part of your career path. And then I didn't actually know, but it totally makes sense that you met Simon at Piora.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Yeah. I had, you know, I was a sommelier at Marea, which is on Central Park South. For those who don't know it, it was a two Michelin star restaurant at the time on Billionaire's Row. So you can imagine we sold so much wine, so many fancy bottles to every name that has weight out there in New York City and above. So I was working there as a sommelier and some of our team had started to go work at this restaurant called Piora in the West Village. And there was a new general manager there that had worked at Marea. And he was like, “You know, Simon's looking for a wine director, I think you’d be perfect for the role.” And I was like, “You know, I don't know if I would be because being a wine director is different.” It's a step above a sommelier in that you're not only selling wine on the floor to your guests, you're also purchasing wine for the program, right? So it's really kind of a crazy hybrid role. You're working the floor selling wine and you're also buying the wine. You're in charge of the restaurant's pocketbook.
So I was like, “I don't know if I'm qualified for this.” He's like, “Just come in and meet Simon.” So I came in, I met Simon, and I instantly fell in love. I mean, he is just truly one of the most magnificent people in our industry. I mean, he's my longest relationship. I've been with him for over 10 years now because he just is–you know, I'd worked for so many chefs and restaurateurs that were always trying to like trying to… They didn't always have the best intentions, or it wasn't aligned. And this guy, you met him, you're you're good, you're gracious, you have the right intentions, and he had these big dreams and visions, and I was all in.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
Yeah, I love that. Oftentimes people are also,when they're thinking about their career path and journey, you're collecting and you're networking, or you're looking at other folks who you align with that you could potentially work with as partners or whatever, work with them. And you see that happen. I would say it's always kind of happened in the industry, like word of mouth and kind of connecting. But more and more so as we see this kind of, dare I say, this whole generation of the next group of restaurateurs building these empires, it's really quite incredible to see. I mean, especially from Culinary Agents being 13 years in, we've seen a lot of these businesses grow from an idea to fruition to now 10, 20 restaurants.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Right. And I think Simon did something and does something that's actually quite unique in our industry. And so I was at Piora as his wine director. And he was like, “I'm opening this concept called COTE.” And it's his dream restaurant. He had been thinking about it, ideating this for over eight years before it even opened. And he was like, “I need a partner, someone to do the beverage and to be the front of house, too.” So he brought me on as a partner in the business, along with Wesley Sohn, our Director of Hospitality, and Chef David Shim. So he made us all partners. That's not–and this was over 10 years ago, so that's not incredibly common in our industry. And he continued to be generous in that way, and now we have over a dozen partners at Gracious Hospitality. Women, people of color. It's actually really, really wild.
So I think there's this idea that when you're opening your own business, you're the owner, right? And you're the founder. And so you kind of want to keep all the pieces of the pie to yourself, right? But Simon actually did this thing where he was like, “Well, I'm going to spread it out more over the people I know and trust.” The thing that happens is you have so many people that are now invested in the success of this restaurant and will work way more and care way more than if someone is just an employee. And I think that's been the secret sauce. And so now he has over a dozen partners that are so invested into the success of this restaurant group that I feel like there's no stopping us.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
There isn't. I feel like there's no stopping us either. I am taking it back to you, because Simon is awesome, and we will have a show with Simon one of these days. But let's talk about, you know, you are very busy and you have aspirations and big goals and all these other things. You also have a life. Which, you know, I'm sure there's blurred lines and harmony between your life and work. Share some of the ways that you kind of continue to rebalance yourself and keep inspired, because it's a tough industry. There's a lot of moving parts, and even if you have the coolest and you love it the most, there are hard days.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Yeah, so there are hard days, for sure. But I don't, you know, I think that trying to always find the balance is hard. And good and bad, those can be tricky words. And so I thought of this idea, you know, around three and a half years ago, I was going through a really, really hard time, personally and professionally. So I was going through a divorce. I had just had my first daughter, and we were in the middle of a pandemic, right? We were just kind of coming out of it, but we were in the middle of it. We had just opened COTE in Miami. It still needed a lot of handholding, a lot of work. And we were just starting to ideate COQODAQ and launch this.
There was a ton of work to do, right? And I had this young baby, I was going through a divorce. It was… I mean, balance does not even, like, there's not even in this equation, right? It was very, very hard. And I remember our Director of Hospitality, our partner, Wesley–who now I've been with also for 10 years–he came over one day, and he was helping me with my young baby. I was really a mess emotionally. And he said to me, “I think we often get bogged down with the idea of what's good, what's bad. Should I do this? Shouldn't I do that?” Right? I mean, we ask ourselves that every day. And he was like, “Instead, let's focus on and ask ourselves the question instead, what's healthy? Is this healthy?”
And I think when you start to frame it in that way, is this healthy or not healthy, it takes out the good or the bad. And it's just like, OK, is this good for you physically, emotionally, spiritually? And I think when you frame it in that way, you kind of answer the questions yourself. So every day, you're right, it's not easy. I mean, my baby, my second beautiful daughter is in the other room now crying with my mother-in-law, right? And I have to run into work shortly. But it's all about, is this healthy? And that's the question I ask myself before I make any major decision for my family, for work as well, and even minor decisions as well, because it's just… there's so much all the time. And it can be easy to get bogged down and have mom guilt, have professional guilt. So ask yourself, is this healthy? And I think that in itself solves a lot of problems.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
That's great. That is the first time I heard that. And I love that. I'm totally going to use that. I'm sure a lot of listeners will as well. You know, and the irony of like, is this healthy? We're in the food industry. You know, I won't look into it too deeply, but that's absolutely right. It kind of reframes the decision making process a little bit. And you lead a lot of teams as well, in multiple cities, multiple countries.
As you guys are continuing to grow–because you have many projects on the docket, which I, and I will speak for many other people, are very excited about. How do you all–because you do have many partners, and you're continuing to grow, and you're adding more projects on top of your projects. Bring us a little bit into the process on that. Just curious.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Sure, so right now we have the COTE and COQODAQ brands. So COQODAQ has one restaurant in New York and it's amazing, it just opened last year. Fancy Fried Chicken.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
And now open for brunch.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
And now we have a brunch. Yes exactly, bring your kids. And then COTE we have in New York our flagship, which we opened in 2017, Miami in 2021. We also opened in Singapore last year. And then this year we're opening COTE in Vegas. So bigger is better out there. It's gonna be a huge wild opening. I'm very excited. And it's kind of like a dream, right? Vegas is like, you get a restaurant in Vegas, that's like the American Dream. You've made it, right? So that's very, very exciting.
And then afterwards, we're opening up, we have this amazing project with The Olayan Group. We're taking over food and beverage for 550 Madison, which is on Madison Avenue. It's the old Sony building. So there's going to be four different concepts in that building alone that we're developing. Right now there's millions of dollars under development, under our belt. We have hundreds of people that work for us at GHM. It's a lot, right? But it's all very, very exciting. And I think that because we're just starting to go from grassroots to a real organization, we have the opportunity to kind of rewrite the script of what that looks like, what a hospitality group can be.
So we've invested early into building the proper structure and to have a really, really dynamic team that cares a lot about the future, and I'm really excited for the next phase because I think that it's gonna be amazing, and we have great people.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
I love it. And it all started as, you know, a dream looking at this this train going into the city. For someone who is kind of starting out and is interested in wine, but is kind of unsure of the best route to take to eventually potentially work with a dynamic group and open all these restaurants and things, what advice would you give them?
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
I think that the most important thing is to find good people. Find somewhere you can grow. We're very, very social, adaptable creatures, but we're very highly influenced. So your environment will shape you, incredibly so. So try and find the right people. Do your homework on what are some of the cultures that you really identify with within the workplace, and go from there. Also, look at amazing wine programs and wine lists. I think that nowadays one of my biggest frustrations with the wine world is there's kind of this anti-education, right? You know, you can be hip and cool and not really care about wine, and you like these like fun producers, but you don't actually understand or know wine. And taking the time to study it deeply, right? And so I think that it's important to get the structure down and really, really have an understanding of the wine world. And the only way you can do that is by tasting a lot and a lot of wine.
Early on in my career as a sommelier, I made it the goal to try and taste at least 50 to 100 wines every day. And you can do that through tastings. You can do that through working in restaurants that sell a lot of wine. So I really, really truly believe that in order to develop an educated palate and to understand the wine world, you just need to taste a ton. And so really look towards those programs that allow you to do that, restaurants that have amazing wine programs, and you're opening all of these great bottles.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
That's great. That sounds like, you know, a lot of wine. Sounds like fun. Fun fact here. I see that. Did I hear a rumor that you also distill your own Amaro?
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
No, not anymore. Oh my gosh, that was a funny tidbit. That was 10 years ago.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
That was 10 years ago, oh my God!
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
When I started at Piora, I was really into foraging because I worked with one of the foragers that we worked with at Marea, who's great, Evan. And I kind of got bit by that bug. And so I would go into the woods on my days off and pick all these botanicals. And after a while, I was like, “What am I going to do with all these?” And so I started making my own Amaro, which, you know, it never really came to fruition in a real way. It's a little tricky legally. You can't really be an owner in a restaurant [and] also have– you know, there's a three tier system. You can't also produce wine or distillates, etc. So I think I made the right decision though with choosing the restaurant group over the Amaro.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
Yeah, but always curious and always experimenting and learning.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Always.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
I love it. I love it. You know, I would say what's next, but I think we covered a little bit of that as far as the projects on the docket. I think the only thing left is going to quick-fire.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
I'm ready.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
You're always ready. What advice would you tell your younger self?
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
I would say just chill, take a deep breath. When you're younger, you think everything is the end of the world, right? This is gonna happen, it's all this drama, you think every decision matters. And I think, take a deep breath, things work out. That's the most important thing.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
What's your advice for someone struggling in the industry?
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
I think identifying what the struggle is specifically is very important. And then ask yourself the question, what's the healthy way forward, right? That's the best way to frame it.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
What's your advice for fellow hospitality leaders?
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Fellow hospitality leaders, I think, think about the legacy you want to leave behind and how you want to change the restaurant, the hospitality world for the better.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
I love that. On that note, Victoria, thank you so much for your time. I have had the tremendous pleasure of knowing you for many years and enjoying the hospitality that you and your team have created. I know that when I walk into any of your restaurants, I can close my eyes and point and find a delicious beverage to drink, with or without alcohol. And I think everything you said about professionalism, dedication, on our ability of working in hospitality, I mean, that is absolutely everything that we push at Culinary Agents as well. And we really appreciate your ongoing support.
GUEST: VICTORIA JAMES
Thank you so much for your time.
HOST: ALICE CHENG
Remember, success looks different for everyone in hospitality. No two paths are the same. If you have a leader or a topic you want to hear about, email [email protected].
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